Talk:Danik Kreldin
Cleanup and Dispute Notices I have added the 'cleanup' and 'dispute' notices for the following reasons. The article is simply way too long. It's much better for sub-pages to be created, so that visitors aren't overwhelmed by the sheer size of the page. As far as the dispute notice goes, I've been notified by Imperial Administrators that quite possibly most of the editorializing in this article is either inaccurate, written from a slanted point of view (IE: not encyclopedic), or straight up is ineligible becuase it was never R'ole'P'layed on the MUSH. My suggestion, since Danik has been banned from the game, is to go through and shave down the sections that are in dispute. --SW1 Kyle 22:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC) *I disagree with this idea. Whatever people may think about Danik currently, no one had major issues with the content of his page until the sudden falling out and subsequent poor judgement that occurred recently. We all include information that may not be strictly encyclopedic, and certainly not Role Played. It's what gives our characters background and history. Say what you will about Danik, he did add a lot to the MUSH, both good and bad. And that history is something we all have played around now for quite some time. I say leave it, (although some of the formatting to break it into pages might be good,) and let us move on with the story. Not spend a bunch of time attempting to alter the past. --Shadow 07:14, 2 February 2007 ** I'm more concerned with breaking the page down into sub-pages than anything else. Any time a character/faction/ship/etc page gets so long that you can't just read it in one short sitting and get a general idea for a thing, it should be shaved down into sub-articles. That way information is maintained, but people who just want to visit a page to get a glimpse of a character don't have to sift through so much information. As far as disputable information, I'm not knowledgeable on that, but I've heard some pretty serious complaints from other players on the game, so if they want to address it, they should. I just put the dispute notice on there ''because I had heard so many complaints. I don't think it should be taken down until those players/administrators come on here and either make the changes, or discuss them here. -- SW1 Kyle 14:47, 2 February 2007 (UTC) *** I can agree with that. -- Shadow 07:57, 2 February 2007 *Anything from section 1.3.3.2 can be backed up with roleplay logs and player testimony, so if someone does have a dispute with information contained in those sections, bring it on... as for material before that, it's just background material that has developed over the years as playing Danik, and that no one has ever had an issue with. It's been used in RP and what other characters have perceived me as, and so forth. And it's nothing unbelievable, either: Clone Wars veteran turned Imperial fighter ace. So yeah, if someone does think I'm putting up false information, have them tell me other than just saying there's the possibility of false information ;p --Danik Kreldin 20:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC) *Let me hear every case. I'll try to work with every case. Honestly, since this is cropping up now and not before my falling out, I am very suspicious, but I'll bite. So yeah, every incident on my article that you/others feel is in dispute/inaccurate, type it out and I'll work with you on it. --Danik Kreldin 20:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC) ** I dispute the following: '''Height 1.8 meters I have heard rumors that Danik is actualy 1.77 meters tall and wears 3-centimeter platform shoes. -- Xerxes 14:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Clean-Up/Dispute Notices, or any Notices on any page for that matter, cannot be removed by an unregistered IP. If someone wants to remove notices, they may only do so from a logged-in account. I'm not against the removal of the notices at this time; I'm stipulating that any actions of this nature must be done so from a registered account. -- Hawke / Rtufo 21:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC) * I don't think the cleanup notice should be removed. The article is painfully long, and I already have an agreement from Shadow that it should be shaved down into sub-articles. As for the dispute notice, I don't think they should be removed until someone from the game who has an issue with Danik's "falsified histories" comes on here and gets into the discussion. Just because some people came on here and (sarcastically?) defended these claims doesn't mean they are instantly dispelled. The notices need to be up there because visitors need to be aware that they may not (note I said 'may not', not 'can not') be able to trust that what's there is legitimate. With Danik having been banned from the MUSH, this is a precarious issue and we need to err on the side of protecting everyone else, NOT protecting Danik's player's ego. -- SW1 Kyle 22:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC) ** I don't think any of us are trying to protect his 'players Ego'. Danik was a very much liked player of SW1, only until his recent banning have people had a problem. A few players in the Empire including myself are tied in with Danik in some way or form. To change his past would be to change ours aswell and I don't think any of us will be too happy with that. -- Seifer Wolf 14:08, 12 Feburary 2007 (GMT +12) ** I believe Danik's ego is secure. At last count, his name appeared over 8,000 times in this wiki. -- Xerxes 13:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC) * I don't really have a problem with any of Danik's past. The stuff that happened before the MUSH went IC is all good and everything. The primary thing that I have an issue with is the editorializing done in the summary. I think it is not in a neutral voice and like the discussion started earlier about Seifer Wolf's page, it should be encyclopedic in nature. It should either be re-written to be a proper summary written from an impartial third person perspective or reclasified as a 'story' and put on a seperate page, maybe call it a eulogy delivered by his supporters after he was captured, just as a summary I think it is too highly biased and the fact that it was put in after things went sour makes me a little suspicious at the motive for doing it at all.--ImperialFH 03:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC) * The other section that I find problematic is section 1.3.4.10 'A Failed Plot'. Some things in there are blatantly wrong and others are distorted out of proportion. Several of the people named have sent @mails emphatically denying any involvement in it. Also, very few people in the 'inner circle' were exiled or killed. 2 were exiled and one killed. The rest all RP'd with ISB people and were 'cleared' of treason charges. I think saying players caved in is insulting to them as well when most both ICly and OOCly said they were misguided by the intention of the meeting, etc. All in all, it is not written from a neutral point of view, the same can be said for some of the Neo Imperial stuff, as Malus was 'dead' when Coruscant was attacked, and it didn't fall as much as the Empire conducted a fighting withdrawl because it couldn't be held. (oocly the NR was supposed to win, but put little effort into developing a plot to actually win, save some great RP beforehand conducted by several Jedi and NR players in establishing cells of resistance fighters.) All in all, I think there are some very well done parts, tying Danik's past in from the Clone Wars days through Valak's campaign and highlighting his service in the run of his time on the MUSH is all well done and serves as a good example of what the SW1 wiki is best at doing. Letting players get really involved in their character histories. Just a little tweaking and adjusting the voice in certain places and then breaking his background into pages would make it a much better page. --ImperialFH 03:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC) **Lynae-Cassius Caiton, Antoine Dareus, Krieg Inrokana, Solon Halwinder, Keline Nelhrn, Dises Diaglo, Wescal Cantrell, Damien Loki Katon, Thraken Quadrix, and Juran Reinzhiner are the fellow conspirators that I name in that paragraph. Naturally, not all of these individuals would actually remain loyal to the organization as time went on, but with the exception of Dises, every single one of them was present at the meeting I described (which I have a log of). So, to deny their involvement is very wrong. There were actually others who were involved that I did not name as they were not at the meeting and had very little real involvement other than whatever we discussed OOCly, like Wolf and Lanil. And although Dises was not present, he expressed much interest in the group and would actually retire from the game due to the whole ordeal. As for the "execution part," I am more than happy to change it. What I meant was that many people in the conspiracy, not just those I mentioned, was killed (like the folks at Garrison Vexed and so on), but I know it isn't worded so and I'll change that. As far as Malus goes, I don't think anyone ICly was aware Malus was "dead" at the time Coruscant was attacked, as nothing was said to that effect. If he was dead, I sure would have known about it. Malign didn't reveal himself until well later. I was actually RPing at the battle - I first played as a civilian on the world who helped Luke and Fegbarr undermine the Empire's efforts by establishing cells (Danik was out of play at the time), and later as a NR pilot (Carnor, I think his name was) who helped defeat Imperial orbital defenses during the initial battle. While I do recall Tyler (then as pilot, though I believe he was going under an alias at the time), there was nothing official in regards to Malign and as far as I can remember, Malus was the known Emperor. Behind the scenes stuff is behind the scenes stuff, and the other characters wouldn't have been aware of it. And the point of the section (as is the Fifth Battle of Coruscant's article) is that Coruscant does fall and return to the NR's hands, and the way to rationalize it ICly is that the Empire was in some pretty big unrest, having riding high on two civil wars and with Malus falling out of grace/disappearing/whatever due to Malign peeking his head in. --Danik Kreldin 07:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC) ***Malus's Death wasn't secret or behind the scenes. He had a full state funeral and Darth Pain/Empress Pantara took over as IC Leader. Perhaps it was not as widely known outside of the Empire OOCly as it should have been but it was the case. She was in that position for several months, and orchestrated a campaign to consolidate the Galactic Empire. This was due in large part to Malus's coup and the following purge of Osbourne loyalists in the fleet, but the Empire had really been on the decline for years ICly and couldn't hold on to the territory that it had. Several NPC'd planets were all but abandoned and because Coruscant was pretty well surrounded by the NR at that time, it was decided to move important strategic assets from the planet and make the Republic pay in blood to occupy it and if I recall correctly, Coruscant fell during her reign. Malus was still the faction head OOCly, but as far as any players knew, he was dead, until his return shortly after Coruscant was back in NR hands. I cannot find my logs from that period or would post them here. That is one way to rationalize why Coruscant fell, but it is not what was roleplayed on the MUSH, just like the whole Whitecoat organization itself is not what happened on the MUSH. As for the co-conspirators, that is for the players involved to decide how much they participated, I read the log as well.--ImperialFH 15:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC) *** I like the way "A Failed Plot" was re-written a lot. Just subtle changes, but it changes the tone from one-sided to encyclopedic. Great job! -- SW1 Kyle 15:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC) **** Doesn't change the fact that they were still present at the meeting and openly discussed how to remove Vadim from the throne. After the shit hit the fan they changed their minds, naturally, but at the time, which the paragraph is referring to, they were at the meeting and involved to some degree. As for Malus, as far as I recall, he was known as Lorn Rhys, a known traitor in the Empire, and was "killed" by Darth Pain. He would come back as Darth Malus, kill Pain, and take back the Empire. Now, I specifically recall him being as his "Malus" identity during the trap on Etti IV, back to "life" and ruling the Empire. The battle of Coruscant occured much later, because after Danik was put away, I created a NR commando alt who I didn't use much. Then I quit the game for months, and upon my return I played the Coruscant civilian who helped in the insurgency. Since he was already Malus and in charge of the Empire by the time the NIM was crushed, this means he was in charge at the time Coruscant fell - in fact, if I recall, this was around the time he started to go inactive as FH. He would eventually be replaced as FH by Tyler, which is around the time I came back to the Empire. So my section on Coruscant is correct - Malus was in charge of the Empire at the time, and the Third Civil War did much to weaken the Empire (after all, a huge portion of the playerbase left during that war). --Danik Kreldin 05:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC) ***** My timeline on Coruscant may be off because of the gap in time between when the plot was scheduled and it was actually executed. I am trying to find logs from that era to verify my memories. However, Malus could have indeed been back at that time. PC involvement doesn't reflect IC/NPC strength regardless, and while several players did leave the faction for reasons that are beyond the scope of this Wiki to go into, it doesn't automatically follow that the 'Third Imperial Civil War' weakened the Empire dramatically, especially due to the short duration of the war and that there were no mass defections nor any huge battles save the Coup on Selene to really account for sustained losses. Imperial power had been waning since the destruction of DSIII, the civil war didn't help matters to say the least, but the Empire was in a pretty poor state before that ICly. --ImperialFH 15:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC) *As far as the summary goes, I have no problem getting rid of it, although "character conclusion" or "summary" sections are not uncommon (check out Palpatine's page on Star Wars Wiki), although they are written by others. So if someone else wants to write a summary on Danik Kreldin, feel free - though I know it will obviously be very very warped (having read through some recent logs It's apparent how so many people feel about Danik ICly, mostly due to OOC transgressions, but whatever) In the end, can anyone deny his loyalty to Palpatine's New Order? He was fervently attached to it and wanted nothing to ever interrupt it, even if he may have been wrong about it; his two coup attempts were done not with personal gain in mind, but to stop what he saw as threats to that foundation he so tied himself to (although ICly it's hard to see it as not power plays on Danik part, but, that's just the issue of perception and characters coming to their own conclusion - no one can Danik's mind, but that's how Danik rationalizes what he does, at least). As for the other parts of the summary, if you can come up with a reason as to how Danik did not respect and love his troops, then go ahead ;p And anyone whose ever had any sort of "philosophical" RP with me, they would know that Danik's main motivator is ultimately restoring peace and justice to the galaxy, as it was in the inter-war era, and that Danik hated the Jedi above all else for their treachery during the Clone Wars. Now, of course his ways may be wrong and evil, but in his Imperial-warped mind, that's how justice is dispensed. Most Imperial players will agree that their characters seek peace through Imperial might. And, finally, for the final paragraph, ICly, Danik was an able strategist and tactician, capable commander, one of the best pilots in the galaxy, and naturally a war criminal. --Danik Kreldin 07:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC) **Does someone want to take a shot at rewriting the disputed sections and post it here on the talk page to be discussed? Perhaps we can create a sub-section for each passage? If the majority of disputes are NPOV-related, I'd imaginge we'd be able to reach consensus quickly on those. -- Xerxes 13:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC) ***Well, As far as the summary goes it could probably be done in a more detached manner or removed completely. To me it currently reads like a eulogy and while they are generally in a third person voice, they are rarely ever neutral nor should they really be. If someone wants to rewrite it and post it here and Danik agrees to it's content that would probably be fine as well. --ImperialFH 15:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC) ****Actually, Xerxes, out of a total of 4,850 pages, 'Danik Kreldin' is only mentioned in 247 of those pages. Now this may be a surprise (as this isn't the first time you've brought this up), I'd say about 90 to 95% of those 247 pages are Imperial related articles, which, surprisingly enough, I've had quite a lot to do with over the past few years. So, I'm sorry that I contribute a lot of Imperial articles in which my character might ultimately be referenced to. And even then, some of those mentions may not even be from me! Amazingly enough, Danik has had quite a lot of interaction with other players over the past few years, so I wouldn't find it too surprising if a fellow Imperial or one of my opponents in the NR dropped a mention to Danik. And finally, what else do you people dispute that needs to be fixed before the notices can be removed? --Danik Kreldin 05:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC) ***** You should rewrite/delete the summary before removing the disputed tag, I think. The page seriously needs to be broken down into children pages before the scruffy tag should be removed. Also The OOC information that has been recently added is a little offensive. You should at least be honest as to who you wanted to replace Vadim with if you are making it an OOC commentary. Everybody knows you didn't want boot an Admin played NPC to replace them with a PC that hasn't logged in in nearly a year when one of your demands was about PC access to the Emperor. Also to be technical you tried to hack alot of wizards, you just got lucky with Doug.--ImperialFH 15:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC) I'm not sure where to put this, but I do want to say that my involvement (Krieg) in the failed plot was limited to a holotransmission only. I was there, but not physically there as I realized being in the outer rim there was no way I could detach myself from assignment there to go back and forth to Corellia in time. I'm not sure this matters much, but it was a revision that needed to be done after the scene as we all met on an OOC stage, and I still was there in some form or another. Nasa eagle 20:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC) Trivia and Such *My original concept for Danik was an Imperial Stormtrooper. At the time I joined the MUSH, however, the Imperial Army/Stormtrooper branches were closed off. So I made an Imperial TIE pilot; originally Danik was a young, newly graduated pilot, but after some fine tuning of my background and such, Danik eventually morphed into the aging war hero he became known for. *I was jailed thrice - once for discovering and exploiting a space code bug alongside Reanus, known as The End of Time, secondly for having known access to a very old copy of the MUSH database which turned ugly, and thirdly for interrupting a scene in which my personal property was being stolen without any prior notification. Finally, I was sitebanned. *Ironically won the Legend nomination the same month as his archnemesis, Axel Vichten. *And also ironically, won the MUSHy Awards for Best Actor, while his second archnemesis, Johanna Siri te Danaan, won Best Actress. *Has quit the MUSH three times in all. Twice due to incidents in the MUSH that drove me crazy, and once (and finally) because real life prevented me from playing. *Never player killed anyone, although was indirectly responsible for the PK of Chipper Long. *Danik Kreldin has been shot down thrice on the game; once by Ikihsa Enb'zik during the Second Battle of Corellia, once by Kyrin Sh'vani during the Sixth Battle of Coruscant, and by a NPC gunner aboard the [[I2SD Conqueror|HIMS Conqueror]], during a friendly fire incident on Selene (NPC played by Janos). Danik was, of course, shot down several times ICly during the Clone Wars in his past. Dispute Part Deux Apparently the only remaining concern that I can think of is the length of the article. While I agree it is a long article, I fail to see the reason why it has to be broken up into unnecessary sub-articles. Allow me to elaborate. When someone stumbles upon this article, they are first introduced to five paragraphs that act as a summary for the rest of the article: you can basically sum up Danik's history in those five paragraphs, and anyone just looking to get a basic first look at the character only has to read these first five paragraphs. Now, for those intrepid souls looking to delve further in the character history, immediately thereafter they are introduced to... the table of contents! If one user was looking to read about Danik's involvement in the Imperial Blitzkrieg, they have to look no further than the table of contents: they click on the aptly named "Return to Power and Imperial Blitzkrieg" section on the TOC and... are automatically sent to the Blitzkrieg section. In my opinion that's the same exact thing as clicking on a link to get to a sub-article concerning that section (ie, if someone wants to see Gren's history in 16 ABY, they'd click on the link to get to the 16 ABY Gren Delede sub-article and read it there). Is it that much different than clicking on the link on the TOC to get the sub-section on the article itself? If a user clicked on the Blitzkrieg link, read through the few paragraphs that constituted it, and decided to check out the Clone Wars sub-section of Danik's history, they wouldn't have to scroll through the entire article in an attempt to find it. You see, I designed the article in such a way that it has easy methods of getting to specific sections. I didn't bunch entire volumes of his history in one or two sections. The user would just have to click the "back" button on their browser to get automatically taken back to the TOC and then it would just be a simple matter of clicking on the "Republic Career" section on the TOC. It's the -same- thing as sub-articles... it would be completely needless to break this article down. It's structured to allow for easily finding what a user wants to read. Like I said before, if a user just wants to get a basic history of Danik, that's what the first five paragraphs are for in the beginning, and then if they want to get more in depth, that's what the TOC is for. It's the same system as others do it... still using Gren as an example, on the main article he has a basic history of the character, like me, only in in broken down sections, and then you can click on links (once again findable through the TOC) to get to sub-articles. In my case, rather than sub-articles, you would use the TOC to get to sub-sections of the main article. I fail to see the problem, I honestly do. The article itself is long, but you don't have to scroll through it to get what you want. It's the same method as what you're proposing, only simplified and utilizing the TOC further. Wookieepedia doesn't use sub-articles, either; look at the Palpatine article on Wookieepedia, very long, always has been, but once again the TOC is there to make finding what the user wants that much easier. It's just a matter of one click. --Danik Kreldin 04:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC) :- The Dispute is still over the Summary. If you will notice it has been removed from Palpy's article. As for the clean up, it is partially over the length. I am sorry but your article looks bad. It is a huge wall of text. Sub-pages make it look a whole lot cleaner. Weather you can accomplish it with using the TOC or not is irrelevant, it still looks really, really bad IMHO. Palpy's article on the wookieepedia looks bad as well for many of the same reasons. The header should be brief, maybe cut it down to a couple of paragraphs that are meant to draw the reader into the article. I know typically when I am doing research on something I only read the first four sentances to see if the article is relevant to what I am looking for. You already have three sub pages for awards, battle history and logs. I think breaking your main page into 3 or 4 sub pages that detail the major parts of Danik's life would make it look a lot cleaner. It would appear that Wookieepedia has been going through a similar debate on Palpatine's article as well. and just as they want to point out that Wookiepedia is not Wiki, we should add in to our discussion that we aren't Wookiee. With that being said, perhaps this discussion should be moved to a forum and voted/discussed there in more general terms since it seems that several players are going to a subpage format over all on one page. --ImperialFH 07:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC) :* Perhaps someone could recommend how the article could be broken up here on the talk page? I find it easier to work through these things with examples. -- Xerxes 12:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC) :- That is easy enough to accomplish. I would break it down into these categerories: Danik Kreldin & the Old Republic: 40BBY-19BBY (This makes a good logical break) The Early Galactic Empire: 19BBY-4ABY (This takes is through run of the movies) The Late Galactic Empire: 4ABY-10ABY (From roughly spans from the end of ROTJ till Danik goes IC) Rise to Power: 10ABY - 13ABY (use this to mark Danik's first IC period in the Empire & Neo-Imperial Movement) Glory & Death: 13ABY-15ABY (Danik's return to the Empire till his death) The stuff such as weapons collector, bounty hunter, swoop racer and CSA can be kept on the main page or put onto another sub-page titled 'The Many Faces of Danik Kreldin' or whatever the author chooses.--ImperialFH 15:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC) Dispute part three I've removed the summary to end the NPOV debate. The only argument left is article length. But there are no rules for article length. Not here or on any Wiki I know of. I'm not going to debate it to death again. It is just people's opinions and feelings. Nothing to enforce it. So there should be no need to dispute it - if I feel like trimming it down or breaking it into subpages in the future (or a ruling is made that says articles can only be so and so long), then that's my decision. I'll take down the dispute tag soon unless there's another major uproar over length. Another reason that has me concerned is that no one, -no one-, said anything about the length of the article before I was banned, and it had been there for a year or so. And not a word. So that doesn't sit well with me. --Danik Kreldin 02:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Scruffy The removal of the Summary should end the 'Dispute' notice, however the Scruffy notice is what is up pertaining to the article length. And to be honest, since the end of the coup and the placement of the dispute notice there were a whole lot of changes. I know you were trying to fashion it to be the sort of article that is Palpatines, but that article on Wookieepedia has raised the same concerns. The community by and large has shown through the forums and through discussions like these a preference for subpaging and/or child articles. I think your page would look a whole lot better with those changes. It is just obscenely long and becomes a whole lot more readable if some time and effort were devoted to formatting. --ImperialFH 04:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC) I'm a fan of subpaging and would encourage it. In my opinion, the best format is Section header, followed by Main article: Subpage, followed by a brief summary of the subpage. See examples here: Antoine Dareus and wikipedia:United States of America. From a navigation perspective, I think subsections vs. subpages are probably about equal. However, when talking about sheer volume of information, summaries + subpages make things less overwhelming for the reader. Also, you're right, there's no set policy on article length, which means good judgement and consensus takes over. -- Xerxes 12:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)